Sunday, October 19, 2008

A Spiritual Look at the Election


I know I haven't kept my promise about blogging, I will get into the groove of it soon... but I just felt like writing something about the election.

So many people are caught up in the technicalities and the particulars of party platforms that there is a lot of confusion with everything.

Even I find myself thinking, how do I vote for either one of the candidates as I don't fully believe in what they are talking about or what they want to do.

And I guess, after talking with Allan Aguirre for a few minutes yesterday and my sister for a bit this morning, things just kind of came into place.

It's really simple actually.

As Christians, it has become taboo to say that you are voting for a candidate for moral reasons.

You get mocked and boo'ed, even by other believers, as being naive and not connected with reality. They are saying that you have to vote issues. Key issues such has healthcare, taxes, energy, the deficit... those are what is most important. What candidate can help ME out the most?
But the truth is, that should not be the basis for our votes.
Our votes should be based on what we believe in, not always what is best for us as individuals, but what is best for the morality of our country. What is best for the morality of the world we want our kids to grow up in.
Is voting for McCain what is best for me? I don't know. In my situation, Obama saying he can offer healthcare to people who can't afford private insurance sure seems appealing... however at what cost? At the cost of voting in someone who has been labeled, even by his peers, as the most liberal man in the Senate? Someone who believes and has legislatively supported 2nd trimester induced abortions?
I've heard Christians say these "moral issues" such as abortion, gay rights, the support of a Palestinian State... that these aren't the big issues... these are issues that will never be resolved and we should focus on the "real" issues. But I beg to disagree. These are the issues that I am spiritually required to pay more attention to. These are the issues that grieve the heart of God and have caused the spiraling of our nation the last 50 years.

Does that make me a religious fantatic? Nope. It makes me just your average Christian according to the Bible.

The other thing that I don't like (and this is a side note) is how the media is portraying the conservative people in office. George Bush, John McCain and Sarah Palin are literally thrashed in the media. I am not saying that I agree with everything they have done, but what is that causing? I can tell you that it is breeding disrespect for leadership into our children. It is showing them that it doesn't matter who you are, even if you are the President of the United States, we will mock you and ridicule you, make ridiculous t-shirts and wear them around because people just don't like you and have a right to spout off with no restraint. There has to be a level of respect shown that is lacking. No matter what you think of policy decisions, there must be a level of respect. It is a Biblical mandate. If Obama is elected, the same will be required.

So I digress. The whole point I am making is that the real question we as Christians need to be asking ourselves is who do we spiritually agree with? There is coming a time where the Bible says there will be a falling away and that those who are not firmly grounded will be drawn away.... please don't read that wrong. I by no means think Obama is the antichrist, so don't go there. But what I am saying is there is a call to those of us who are followers of Christ to stand firm in our beliefs and not allow our judgment to be clouded. We have to know what we know and why we believe it well enough to talk about it, defend it and live it. We are beyond the point where we just believe things because that is what we are told to believe. That because your parents believe it and your grandparents believe it, you are going to believe it also. If you have never had a real encounter with Jesus and a real life change, you aren't going to be able to grasp the reality and truth of what the Presidential Election is all about. That it is not just a time to vote issues, but it is a chance to vote for what we believe in. We have to have discernment in our voting. We by all means HAVE to look at their morals and their world views, NOT just their political platforms and promises, when we are choosing who to cast our vote for.

People are scared and that's ok. But being scared about the economic state of our country should not lead us to compromise our moral standards. As one of my favorite people Bill Johnson says, "Compromise is the Welcome Mat to Deception." I don't want to be deceived. I don't want my fear over a tax increase or what an unforseen illness or even pregnancy without health insurance may do to my finances allow me to compromise my own moral beliefs and vote for someone who stands in general for things contrary to the Word of God.

So maybe this whole blog has made me sound like a raging religious fantatic... but you know what? That's ok. If you don't agree with me or are scared to make that kind of stand because you don't want the backlash of secular opinions, then that is something you need to deal with.

But the fact of the matter is this is truth. This is Biblical. We can't always just vote issues. We have to start making a stand and vote for morality and truth.

McCain isn't perfect and I would rather not vote for him. But when placed next to Obama, it is clear who I should vote for.

Bottom line. It's not about issues, but as a Christian it is and always will be about morality.

I don't know if this blog made any sense. It's late and this is just something I've been stewing on throughout the day... but I hope I made my point. We can't just focus on the issues, we have to look at the person and their personal world view. If it is in opposition of what we stand for, then how can we vote them into office?

97 comments:

Brad Shull said...

So basically you are saying if you are a true Christian you will Vote Republican, and if you vote democratic you are selfish and your feet aren't firmly planted in the word of God and you are going to hell.

Got it.

Brad Shull said...

one more thing, you always say liberal so negatively, but I looked it up after reading your blog and the definition shocked me.


Liberal - favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

Wow, your family stems from Liberal Ideas! Didn't your grandfather take on his own Baptist church to change it. After that he started his own church and look how amazing it has become.

I kind of like the word Liberal. Maybe you should stop using it as a derogative term.

conservative - tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditional b: marked by moderation or caution conservative estimate c: marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners.

Des said...

Sorry you got that out of my blog, but that's not what I was meaning. I am by no means saying John McCain is the right man, or that Republican's are the only way. Looking at McCain's track record you will see he hasn't always stood up for the issues I see as morally relevant. I am just saying you have to look at a candidate's world view and find the one that you feel most aligns itself with the Word of God. Not just the one that aligns itself with your political views.

Des said...

and don't play semantics. Liberal in the way that we all know it is not a positive thing. You can play on words as much as you want, but the connotation is what matters.
Gay does not mean homosexual in the classic sense of the word, but we all know what it means in this day and age.

Mel said...

Bravo Des! I have always felt this way and you expressed it with elegance & truth & clarity! Two main reasons I'm voting for McCain are Sarah Palin and Sarah Palin! She is a spirit-filled Christian, supporter of Israel, supporter of babies over abortion, etc and I truly believe she will be GREAT for our country and help bring about TRUE change, not just rhetoric of change. The points you made about Obama are facts. I always look at the election with spiritual eyes 1st, then issues.

Brad... Happy birthday again... Hope you have a very blessed day. All candidates promise the moon and most of them never deliver on it. That brings us back to things they stand for and Obama's voting track record & questionable ties to MANY radical/dishonest people (not just Bill Ayers) & lack of being totally honest about these things screams of things I don't stand for. So my choice is clear. Hope you can come to a clear decision of who to vote for between you & God too, whoever it may be.

Des - this blog is priceless! Bravo again!
Luv ya!

Courtney said...

Amen Sister!!!! It most certainly has to be about moral issues too. We have to look at this a election through a Spiritual perspective and not what would most benefit us in the here and now. I loved this blog and feel that all Christians should take a stand the way you just did! Way to Go Sista!!!!

Courtney said...

Actually Brad...he did NOT "take on" the Baptist church. He got filled with the Holy Spirit and those religious people didn't like that so they kicked him out. Just so you know. He by no means wanted to change them or offend them.

Brad Shull said...

and you misunderstood my comment Courtney. I wasn't saying it negatively, I was saying it as a positive thing.

It was a very Radicle Liberal thing!

mbriscoe said...

Thanks. That was good and true! Couldn't have said it better myself!

Mel said...

I was actually there when Olen (from Shady Grove) & Howard Conatser (From Beverly Hills Baptist) got kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention for believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit! Real Spirituality vs. Religiousness. Olen wasn't being a liberal radical, he was radically changed by the Holy Spirit and that change poured into his church... that was a GOD change, not Olen changing things for himself! :)

Brad, what is the Holy Spirit telling you to do? Be true to what you think God is telling you and the rest of us will do the same!

God is our ultimate source! Things will be perfect when Christ returns and rules and reigns here on Earth... that will be the right system for us all!

Des said...

From Brandie King who left this comment on MySpace: DestinyI loved loved loved this blog, actually i thought about forwarding it to some of my family!! I think it's great!!

I also think being worried about healthcare and the economy is a ploy of the Devil to distract us from what is really important in this election. We forget that the Lord provides for his children. Our brains can't fathom that the money will be there, that we will eat and have shelter. It's His promise to us that as his children we will have those things even when we don't understand where they come from. However being that we are human we have a hard time not relying on ourselves or our leaders. That's a really scary place to be, to be more dependant there than on our God.

Anyways, this is one of my favorite blogs sets that you write!! And anything Spiritual gets me fired up(in a good way!) I love intellectual spiritual conversation. So thanks for stimulating my brain today!!

Brandie

Jerri said...

I firmly believe that the main issues of this election in God's mind are the killing of the unborn, support of Israel, and gay rights. And I also believe that the enemy wants to distract us with other issues that don't really matter in the long run. I'm not really excited about either candidate, but one definitely favors the issues on God's heart more than the other. It's my moral obligation to vote for that person. Not voting or voting independent is actually casting a vote for the wrong person. Thanks, Des, for the blog. It really brings clarification. I love you!

Angie said...

I really think too many people focus too narrowly on the three issues of abortion, gay marriage, and Israel. What about helping the poor, the sick, the elderly, the needy?? What about making sure that American child have access to quality education? Surely God cares just as much about those issues - which Democrats tend to address better, in my opinion - as He does about the others. I think Christians should begin thinking more broadly about all of the things that God asks of them, instead of focusing so much on such a short list of things.

Mel said...

Angie - Christians DO focus on helping the poor, the sick, the elderly, the needy more than anyone else, we just do it thru our churches and daily Christian lives of giving & helping and don't believe that it's the GOVERNMENTS place to do it as much... :)

Same old liberal excuse... "Christians are too narrow minded"... Jesus himself said narrow is the road that leads to life... and broad is the road that leads to destruction! If nonbelievers could comprehend how much God LOVES us and His thoughts are good towards us and He wants to have fellowship with us, they would run into His arms instead of being afraid to give Him their lives... :) He's so amazing!

Jonathan said...

Finally someone is talking about something that matters concerning this upcoming election. As a European i'm always amazed at the great opportunity that American believers have to even be able to base their vote on morality. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is one other nation were morality still as chance to be upheld or brought back through an election. As believers it should be a mandate for us to vote against abortion or to make it as hard as possible for it to spread. Let's not even mention Israel. Anyways great blog Des! And for the record I like Palin, so there is at least one European in the world that likes her!!!

Des said...

I love my European husband! :) Well put honey. Thanks for all your comments everyone. I love good discussions!

Mel said...

We love your European husband too :)

Erin said...

***this is from Jeff Deyo's blog

Why I Can’t Vote For Obama


This is an article I did not write, but I felt I needed to share. Everyone needs to vote! And everyone needs to be informed. And before you vote, ask yourself how you will feel about your choice when you stand before our Creator. We must ACT, and we must act in FAITH! Trust the Lord to use a good man to do his will. Our God turns the hearts of kings, so certainly, he can take care of a nation submitted to him. Vote God's way even if it doesn't seem to make "sense". Vote baby, vote! Jeff Deyo


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



This is from Huntley Brown, a Christian concert pianist, a man of God and a black man. This is too good not to share!




>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Why I Can't Vote For Obama

First I must say whoever wins the election will have my prayer support. Obama needs to be commended for his accomplishments, but I need to explain why I will not be voting for him.

Many of my friends process their identity through their blackness.

I process my identity through Christ. Being a Christian (a Christ follower) means He leads I follow. I can't dictate the terms He does because He is the leader. I can't vote black because I am black; I have to vote Christian because that's who I am. Christian first, black second. Neither should anyone from the other ethnic groups vote because of ethnicity. 200 years from now I won't be asked if I was black or white. I will be asked if I knew Jesus and accepted Him as Lord and Savior.

In an election there are many issues to consider but when a society gets abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning, to name a few, wrong, economic concerns will soon not matter.

We need to follow Martin Luther King's words, "Don't judge someone by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." I don't know Obama so all I can go off is his voting record.

His voting record earned him the title of the most liberal senator in the US Senate in 2007. NATIONAL JOURNAL: Obama: Most Liberal Senator in 2007 (01/31/2008)

To beat Ted Kennedy and Hilary Clinton as t he most liberal senator, takes some doing. Obama accomplished this feat in 2 short years. I wonder what would happen to ..:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />America if he had four years to work with.

There is a reason planned parenthood gives him a 100 % rating.
There is a reason the homosexual community supports him.
There is a reason Ahmadinejad, Chavez, Castro, Hamas etc. love him.
There is a reason he said he would nominate liberal judges to the Supreme Court.
There is a reason he voted against the infanticide bill.
There is a reason he voted No on the constitutional ban of same-sex marriage.
There is a reason he voted No on banning partial birth abortion.
There is a reason he voted No on confirming Justices Roberts and Alito. These two judges are conservatives and they have since overturned partial birth abortion. The same practice Obama wanted to continue.

Let's take a look at the practice he wanted to continue.

The 5 Step Partial Birth Abortion procedure

1. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps. (Remember this is a live baby)
2. The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
3. The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
4. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the hole.
5. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed. God help him.

There is a reason Obama opposed the parental notification law. Think about this: you can't give a kid an aspirin without parental notification but that same kid can have an abortion without parental notification. This is insane.

There is a reason he went to Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years. Obama tells us he has good judgment but he sat under Jeremiah Wright teaching for 20 years. Now he is condemning Wright's sermons. I wonder why now? Obama said Jeremiah Wright led him to the Lord and discipled him. A disciple is one in training. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:19 - 20 'Go and make disciples of all nations.' This means reproduce yourself. Teach people to think like you, walk like you, talk like you believe what you believe etc. The question I have is what did Jeremiah Wright teach him?

Would you support a White President who went to a church which has tenets that said they have a:

1. Commitment to the White Community
2. Commitment to the White Family
3. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
4. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
5. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
6. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
7. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.

Would you support a President who went to a church like that?

Just change the word from white to black and you have the tenets of Obama's former church. If President Bush was a member of a church like this, he would be called a racist. Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton would have been marching outside. This kind of church is a racist church. Obama did not wake up after 20 years and just discovered he went to a racist church. The church can't be about race. Jesus did not come for any particular race. He came for the whole world.

A church can't have a value system based on race. The churches value system has to be based on biblical mandate. It does not matter if it's a white church or a black church it's still wrong. Anyone from either race that attends a church like this would never get my vote.

Obama's former Pastor Jeremiah Wright is a disciple of liberal theologian James Cone, author of the 1970 book A Black Theology of Liberation. Cone once wrote: 'Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. Cone is the man Obama's mentor looks up to. Does Obama believe this?

So what does all this mean for the nation?

In the past when the Lord brought someone with the beliefs of Obama to lead a nation it meant one thing - judgment.

Read 1 Samuel 8 when Israel asked for a king. First God says in 1 Samuel 1:9 'Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.'

Then God says: 1 Samuel 1:18 'When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.' 19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. 'No!' they said. 'We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.' 21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, 'Listen to them and give them a king.'

Here is what we know for sure.

God is not schizophrenic

He would not tell one person to vote for Obama and one to vote for McCain. As the scripture says, a city divided against itself cannot stand, so obviously many people are not hearing from God.

Maybe I am the one not hearing but I know God does not change and Obama contradicts many things I read in scripture, so I doubt it.

For all my friends who are voting for Obama, can you really look God in the face and say; Father based on your word, I am voting for Obama even though I know he will continue the genocidal practice of partial birth abortion. He might have to nominate three or four supreme court justices, and I am sure he will be nominating liberal judges who will be making laws that are against you. I also know he will continue to push for homosexual rights, even though you destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for this. I know I can look the other way because of the economy.

I could not see Jesus agreeing with many of Obama's positions. Finally I have two questions for all my liberal friends.

Since we know someone's value system has to be placed on the nation,

1. Whose value system should be placed on the nation?

2. Who should determine that this is the right value system for the nation?

Blessings,
Huntley Brown

Mel said...

Thank you Erin! Beautiful & priceless info!

Brad Shull said...

Abortion has been Legal for over 30 years people! 3 Republican presidents have been in office since then and done absolutely nothing to overturn it.

Mel said...

Just b/c abortion has been legal for a long time doesn't make it right and that we shouldn't fight to have it overturned.

Brad, rest in your liberal views if you think they are right. The ones of us that don't agree with you surely rest in our conservative views with no qualms whatsoever. We will all answer to God someday on how we sided with His Word in every aspect of our lives. That's His word, not ours. I'm proud to be a Christian conservative, with no apologies.

erin said...

" The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV

isn't it interesting what you will find in the bible...

Mel, I 100% agree with you.

Jerri said...

Wow. I LOVE the comments! Great discussion.
Mel, it truly is the Word of God that we need to side with.
I love you all!

Des said...

Brad I don't think most people commenting think that John McCain has the magic formula to get Roe v. Wade overturned. It will truly take some sort of miracle, and who knows if it will ever happen. The POINT is that he is against it and the POINT is that Obama is not only for abortion, but as his legislative track record shows, he is for abortion at any stage. I can not as a Christian vote for someone who openly states that he is for the killing of unborn children.
I think it is wrong that you think that just because it's legal means that we just have to accept it. I for one will never accept it and just think, oh well. It is a huge issue and should not be ignored or brushed aside as not an important issue.

Linda said...

Great post Des! I agree with you.

becki said...

I'll start off by saying that I am Pro-Life 100%. But just for the record and for getting things straight, I don't believe that Obama is "for" abortion or "for" the killing of unborn children. He is "for" letting women decide about getting an abortion and letting the states restrict partial birth abortions if they choose to. According to this website from the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform I got this statistic:

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Also this:
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

I completely understand where you're coming from and I absolutely believe that God's heart is for unborn children. I think one way we as Christians can help the abortion rates go down is to take a look at the big picture of WHY women are getting abortions.

According to those statistics I found, it looks like about 70% of abortions are by women claiming to be believers! That's crazy!

Also, almost half of the abortions are by women who have incomes less than 30K a year. And women in households making $60K or more only make up 13.8% of abortions. That leads me to believe that many of these women might be making their decision based on a worry that they can't afford to have a child.

There is no way in the world I could ever have an abortion, no matter my circumstances, but obviously not everyone feels that way or it wouldn't be such a difficult and present issue. If finances are a big reason for getting an abortion, I could see tax cuts for lower & middle class families (which seem to be where most of the abortions are happening) easing this burden some. As well as health care coverage being more affordable.

I'm in no way at all saying to vote for Obama or to vote for McCain, I just think that there's more to stopping abortion (which is the ultimate goal) than the legal status of it and we have to see big picture how we can really stop it. Part of that is looking at and addressing the causes.

This is a really interesting discussion. I like hearing everyone's point of view.

Des said...

Being for a woman's right to choose is the same thing as being for abortion.

And the women you are talking about MOST likely are on welfare or some sort of government assistance. Therefore they are taxed very, very minimally. I tried to find out if welfare benefits are taxed at all, but I couldn't find that info out. So basically, they wouldn't really be effected by a tax cut or if they were, taxes on $15,000-$30,000 is not that extreme and would not improve their quality of life.

So yes, I'm sure money is a huge factor here. As is age, educational background, religion and where these women are in life. But again, nevertheless, for the election at hand, I don't think that Obama's "tax cuts" (and I say that with cynicism as I don't believe his tax cuts are going to benefit the middle class due to the strain it will put on small businesses who may be forced to lay off people in order to stay in the black) will make less women have abortion.

Brad Shull said...

Becki im glad you posted that!

I was trying to find a way to say all of what you said and you did it so nice and without heavy emotion. That is the approach I should have taken from the first comment I made on this blog. Lesson learned.

Melanie,

Thank you so much for your wise words. Im glad your proud to be a Christian Conservative. I don't consider my views Liberal, but if you do than thats awesome. I am just asking honest questions that most "Right wing conservatives" like to ignore. I think all us Christians could reach a lot more people if we drop the Judgement from our tones and try to connect with people. To me that is when the Church will truly succeed.

And I am pro-life believe it or not. I know I ozz liberal slim but I have a good heart believe it or not.

Good luck everyone! Go vote today if you want.

Mabrie said...

Wow! What a discussion!
Brad - I think if you voted for Obama today...you're still going to heaven!

becki said...

Ha ha! I think so, too. :)

Anonymous said...

I don't know any of you, and I am prepared to defend this next comment....

THE GOVERNMENT DOES IN FACT HAVE TO HAVE A HAND IN YOUR PHILANTHROPIC GENEROSITY....

Without it, you would NOT always give, welfare and social institutions would FAIL!

We don't always have money to give...look at the charities who depend solely on the contributions of various Americans from various classes...THEY ARE SUFFERING right now! I wish it were as easy as you think...but quite frankly, I think a lot of this is IGNORANT!

Anonymous said...

Seriously...if you continue to mix your politics and religion...you will never be satisfied! Keep your spirituality seperate...we are not all Christian, and are no less American!

Politicians are not there to validate your religiosity!

Anonymous said...

Brad...
I'm not sure if you know this... but the idealogy that God STILL performs miracles is the furthest thing from liberal... it's actually pretty funny. The liberals are the ones who said that it can't happen anymore. The liberals are the ones that 'progressively' moved away from the idea of God altogether!

And for every liberal dictionary you find, there is another conservative dictionary. I'm sorry you didn't grow up with a father who gave to you without restraint. His liberalism with his love has clearly scarred you! Your views might be very different if had freely given to you. Instead you find yourself trapped as a victim. May you find it in your heart to forgive.

I'm not here to promote McCain, Biden, or Palin, but...
MARK MY WORDS. MARK MY WORDS! The holocaust of the unborn must stop in this nation or the hand of God himself will wipe our continent off the map.

Your parents thought Vietnam was bad. How many Americans died in the Vietnam 'Police Action'? 56,555

At the beginning of the year, in the gulf war, Afghanistan and Iraq combined, we had lost a whopping 4660. I honor the men and women who gave their lives to protect us.

However, these numbers pale in comparison to the infantcide that has destroyed over 50 MILLION babies and countless mothers of the dead for their entire lives... PETA would NOT stand for this.

What more, even the farthest left wing liberals would not support send these babies into war, because war is cruel, but yet you say that these babies don't matter...kill them!

It sounds like the word liberal really means departure from whatever is, because any student of history will tell you that it repeats itself! Liberal really means terminally unhappy.

You want to know who is best for this country? Go look up the demise of every great nation. Then look back 100 years before the collapse and see if around that time they didn't begin to accept homosexuality as a 'natural way of life'. Who is good for this country? God is good.

The hand of God have mercy on us. But we'd better get it right and quick!

Brad Shull said...

Such bold statements are easily said anonymously.

Brad Shull said...

P.S. Im pro-life.

Anonymous said...

Who ever left that last statement (anonymously)....clearly you are NOT a student of history!

If you were, you would see that it isn't tolerance that impairs nations...its intolerance!

God makes us how we are meant to be, gay or strait…white or black… you know the list!

You are a chicken shit! You are ignorant and I have a feeling hell is going to be REALLY BIG SURPRISE for you!! God doesn’t give out cookies for being a HOMOPHOBE! But whatever helps you sleep at night!

Maybe YOUR dad didn't give you the attention YOU NEEDED??

Des said...

Ok, we attack ideas we do not attack people. I will take off "anonymous" posts here if you guys don't play nice.

Justin Ransom said...

Wow, great blog Destiny! I'm sorry I'm just know discovering it. We are clearly in the midst of a Culture War, and secular progressive ideology is spreading like the pleauge. It really concerns me that so many believers aren't seeing this for what it is. When I see good friends of mine who are solid believers suggest thing's like, "I think there is too much government involvement on the issue of abortion and the decision should be left to courts on the state by level." I have to do a double take. I mean, really? Are you honestly suggesting that Federal Government should stay out of this issue? THANK GOD Abraham Lincoln didn't interpret the Constitution that way when it came to the evil human rights issue of slavery. And that is exactly what abortion is, an evil human rights issue.

Brad Shull said...

THANK GOD Abraham Lincoln was a Liberal or Slavery might still be legal.

Angie Wilson said...

Since we are so trapped in this abortion war...here are my thoughts:

I am not pro-abortion, but Im not oblivious to the side effects of making it illegal.

If abortion was made illegal; young adults would not practice safer sex, teens would still get pregnant (BUSH to thank for the lack of comprehensive, science based sex education). Sex is great, we tell these young people that everday in the media and in music. But, we don't give them the tools to be responsible with it. In Europe the teen pregnacy rates are much lower because they teach comprehensive sex ed...kids are more likely to wait if sex isn't treated as a TABOO!

We would not see a sudden shift in morality...those who choose abortion do not (in their minds) have a choice. Adoption is not always an option, as some of these girls are too fearful to even let it be known that they are pregnant.

Lets consider the alternative to abortion, if it were illegal....

Poor, young, unwed women do not always make the best decisions in times of desperation. These women may seek unsafe alternatives to abortion; terminating the pregnancy themselves or carrying full term and disposing the baby.

These are selfish and EXTREME, but they are important to consider.

Another view is this;
unwed or young women have their babies...they see them and decide to keep them, knowing that they can't afford healthcare and food....they are rely on foodstamps, WIC, and tax payers for their well being...and that is very UNFORTUNATE, because CONSERVATIVES like yourselves vote AGAINST the tax increases that help them! If you are going to BE AGAINST abortion, atleast be PRO-SOCIAL WELFARE...

VOTE LIBERAL...VOTE FOR OBAMA!! =)

WOW...what a vicious cycle!

Justin Ransom said...

Actually since you brought it up, Lincoln was a Republican. The abolition of slavery was not a "liberal" act. I think your definitions of liberalism and conservatism are a little askew my friend.

Justin Ransom said...

In order to bring up income and race with regards to abortion you must first look at the bigoted roots of the modern abortion movement. The entire idea behind it is eugenics, an evil social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention. This same philosophy which was based in Darwinism, is what the Nazi's used to justify the Holocaust and led to the involuntary, forced sterilization of over 60,000 Americans between 1907 and 1963, because they were deemed unintelligent and unfit to breed. This was one of the darkest chapters in modern medicine, but unfortunately the work of eugenics continues today. Margaret Sanger (founder of Planned Parenthood of America) was one of the biggest proponents of eugenics in the world. So, before you start to think about how Planned Parenthood cares about a "women's right to choose" and helping out low income, minority women or some bull like that. You must first realize that it is rooted in one of the most evil, elitist, racist, bigoted social philosophies to ever enter the mind of man. If you think I'm making all this up, please look up eugenics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Riley said...

Sorry, I'm a bit behind, but I do have some comments for individuals. I welcome feedback, too. :)

Hey Brad, I got a little surprise for you. Abraham Lincoln associated himself with 2 parties: the Whigs and the Republicans. I guess that's bad news for you to consider the idea that you've been brain-washed by your political 'forward thinkers'. But I'm afraid that's exactly what it is. All these stars saying that "war is bad" "Ban Handguns!" And then you see them on the cover of the next movie and what is that in their hand? Oh, a GUN! and where are they going ? to make War look GLORIOUS!!! Let's call it what it is- Hypocrisy! It's brain washing and it's got to stop.

Angie, you're sounding awfully communist! The idea of taking from the community to coddle those who will not work is repulsive. I understand that some people fall on hard times. I know what it's like to live off of Ramen Noodles because you only have a few dollars for food for the week. I also know what it's like to live off of food stamps. I've done it, but only for 1 month before I could put my feet back up below me. And no, I didn't do it with a normal job. I did odd jobs and worked on people's cars for cash. I found individuals who apartments or houses to lease and did make readies. It was kind-of new to me at the time, but hey, I found a way to survive because I didn't want to live my life on handouts. Giving out free money to those who refuse to earn it is retarded.

Having said that, I am totally for a system where the church or other institutions who could manage the money much better than someone who wants to put a 20 million dollar projector in his home town with the money and leave the leftovers for the people who need it. We don't need to tell that's Obama!

If you really care about people who need help, you should be at the soup kitchen teaching them how to survive. Like the old song by Arrested Development says "give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll eat forever." There are more man made lakes in the state of Texas than any other state in the nation, pretty much all of them stocked. It's not my choice for food, but fishing isn't exactly rocket science and faced with starvation (which takes over a month), I would happily eat a few fishies.

I would be for STATE (not national)-run systems to EDUCATE people so that they can learn to work on cars or weld or do a million other things to get them by on lean times... but hey, if you want to learn a skill to get by on, you can already do it at millions of county colleges across America for a few hundred dollars a semester, and there really aren't any prereqs. That is of course unless you'd rather sit around and bum off of hard working Americans.

Becki, have you heard of FOCA? Look up the Freedom Of Choice Act. Obama has sworn on many occasions that his first act as president would be to sign this bill into law. Good luck finding the whole thing on the internet. It's out there, but difficult to find entire bills, so here's the short of it:
1. The government will guarantee a woman's right to choose the fate of the baby God has entrusted them with. DURING ALL 9 MONTHS OF PREGNANCY!
2. The government will federally prosecute any doctor, healthcare company, or other entity on a Class IV FELONY for not complying with her wishes. So basically the reason people say Obama is PRO-DEATH is because he wants no restrictions on killing babies and he wants to put anyone who stands in the way of this killing machine to serve a minimum of 5 years in the Pen, and a minimum fine of $20,000 I believe it is. now tell me how this won't raise the cost of healthcare! Tell me how this will give us BETTER healthcare if the doctors who actually care about their patients are all in prison or quit!
The other reason they say this about Obama is because of the Born Alive Act. It passed unanimously in the Senate. No One voted against it. But who voted "Present"? "That One" did. He fought vehemently against it, but wouldn't put his name on his conviction because he has been trained up since the beginning to be 'above reproach' by who do you think? Ayers? Wright? In his whole 2 years in office, he was named the most liberal man in congress. 2 years? C'mon, really REALLY!!? And you want to make him the president? He has voted "Present" FAR! too often to argue that he would make an ok commander and chief. Being in charge is all about being able to make up your mind. The fact that he won't vote tells on of two things, either he can't lead because he has no idea what he's doing or he can't vote because if people know his political stance that black and white, he'll never get to be president, so he has to argue on the floor and keep his name out of the book as having a side.

He keeps attacking McCain as being Bush. but in truth if he wanted to run against Bush, he would have done so as a. anyone? AnyONe!? that's right a community planner. what IS that?! Nobody can seem to say. And the OTHER reason is because he can be directly quoted as having said "If one of my daughters makes a mistake, I don't want them punished with a child." Anyone who calls children punishment is someone I will never support. We are ethically opposite. I can never show support of Obama.

Sorry to go political on this topic, but I guess I got sucked in by the rest of the political stuff.

Becki, I appreciate your interest in the statistics. You'll also note that about 1 out of 100 women claim that they are having an abortion due to rape or incest. What's more, that number hasn't changed in the last 30 years according to statistics. So the argument that abortion should be ok in this case really doesn't hold much water... even a severe optimist wouldn't say the glass is 1/100th full. it's practically empty.

You also point out what a tragic job the church is doing of managing on this topic. I don't know if it's because it's 'popular' to be a 'christian' in some areas or what, and furthermore, I have no idea how to improve this number, but I think it is a clear call to pray for a plan of action or healing or something.

Des, thanks for posting this! I truly believe that if people really understand what anonymous had to say about the quantity of deaths even compared to our worst wars, everyone would clearly see that this is the most important topic for our country in the last 30 years.

Oh, and Brad, about the comment on 3 Republican presidents not overturning Roe v. Wade. Legislating from the White House is as bad as legislating from the bench. The most powerful man in America is clearly not Bush. It's currently Nancy Pelosi or Ben Bernanke or Secretary Paulson (I think I may need to write a blog on appropriate first names for your children about this one, I mean Secretary!? but I digress) And it's awfully curious how well the economy was doing 2 years ago, right before we elected a democratic congress. Let us not forget who ACTUALLY legislates the law- Congress. All the president can do is Veto or sign. A President can't unilaterally undo an amendment or a supreme court ruling.

It's appalling that what people in America don't know about how our government works. Did they at least teach you about the electoral college in government class? I seriously have had to teach people about the electoral college and answer questions about who would become president if Obama were elected but assassinated, because people believe that's a realistic outcome. It's scary what you will believe when you are ignorant! So, if you take nothing else from all of this EDUCATE YOURSELF! Learn about the truth and then cast your ballot, but do it with understanding, not because he is or isn't black or liberal.

God bless, and hey Anonymous, I think you're right... Our nation does need a change of heart.

joanna moore said...

Great blog, Des! Wow, this has really heated up since I first read it.

My thoughts:

Yes, you should vote according to moral issues first. No, you can't legislate morality, but some people who are doing wrong things are just ignorant and if we show them hey, that's bad and now it's illegal, shoot maybe some of those people will stop.

I admit (proudly) that I am a one-issue voter. You can call me crazy if you want, I don't mind. What matters most to me when I vote is the life/abortion issue. I think a lot of one's belief system stems out of their views on life.

Now I don't pretend to know much about politics, the economy, foreign policy, healthcare, etc. but what I do know is this: If we humble ourselves, pray and seek the face of God and turn from our wicked ways, He will hear from heaven, forgive our sin and heal our land. When we get right with God, we don't have to worry about the minor stuff. He is so much bigger than political issues! Can you imagine if we started loving the unborn and welcomed the blessing that they bring to our lives? (i am a parent so i understand that it can be very difficult at times but so much more rewarding!) He would bless our nation... our economy would improve, healthcare would improve (shoot, we may not even need so much of it!), we would be protected from terrorist attacks and natural disasters... That may sound naive, especially because the bible predicts that bad things will happen in the end times, but that's no reason to just say "the hell with it, i'm just going to do whatever i want".

i've about had enough of animal rights and gay rights... what about child rights?! if it wasn't for my conviction that homosexuality is a sin, i'd be up for a compromise: take your gay rights and animal rights, just give our children the right to life!!!

don't get me wrong, i don't think gays should be ostracized... they have the right to do everything that any other sinner can do (join the military openly, for example). with the exception of marriage. i'd even agree to the fact that they should be able to receive insurance benefits from their partner, see them in the icu like a opposite sex spouse can, etc.

back to abortion: let's say it gets illegalized (if that's a word), maybe there will be women who try to do the abortion themselves, and that would be "unsafe" medically. seriously, she's not going to be any better off emotionally if a professional did it. and that's the scar that lasts longer than any scalpel or vacuum can cause. whether she's been raped, been the victim of incest, or just doesn't feel capable of taking care of a child. that baby should not be punished because something bad happened to its mother.

ok, sorry i've gone on a little rabbit trail here.

i don't trust obama, and even if he got elected (God forbid!) he would probably be assasinated, and then we'd have a totally clueless commander in chief. i think there's a much greater chance of obama getting killed than mccain dying, but even if i'm wrong, i'd rather have palin then biden in the oval office.

as for the pro-life republicans who didn't overturn roe v wade, yeah that's unfortunate. but there's a greater chance of a pro-life president appointing a pro-life supreme court justice than a pro-choice president doing the same. the next president will likely have that responsibility and that could very well affect roe v wade.

erin, thank you so much for the repost! very good stuff.

Angie W said...

Justin- WIKIPEDIA….what a great intellectual pool of info! GREAT JOB on googling that! I know a little something about social welfare and planned parent hood…you are right that it’s racially and economically unequal…but even rich women with big fancy homes sometimes choose to abort!

Riley- wow!! It’s CUTE that you think Arrested Development wrote that…ha! Communist huh?? You are adorable!

You can’t mold these social facts into your “ought to be” perfect world…I am done here…I am way too COMMUNIST and progressive for this blog! I feel like Im reading a children's book...IT"S NIGHTMARE!!!!

Obama will be president, Peace Out!

Anonymous said...

Why do children deserve more consideration than animals or adults?

Where do you draw the line? White over black? Rich over poor? A 2 month old over a 12 year old?????

What gives you the right to say a child is more valuable than a dog?

Whose to say?

God is in control...some babies are just not meant to be...some people die in horrible car crashes after leading the PERFECT CHRISTIAN life...God is not fair, and you cannot rationalize aborted fetuses with your HUMAN morals!

Des said...

I will undoubtedly say that a child's life is more important than an animal's life.
You would seriously choose your dog over a child, ANY child?

Justin Ransom said...

Well I was trying to dumb it down and make it easy for you. But, since you attacked my Wikipedia reference (which by the way if you had looked at the eugenics content you would know that all the info in the article is referenced to very credible sources and not user generated, I don't give out crap info) here are some sources that someone one of your high intellect might not frown upon:
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/
http://www.blackgenocide.org/negro.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eugenics
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021500-02.htm
http://www.pro-vita.org/eugenics.htm
http://www.accd.edu/sac/honors/main/papers02/Judge.htm
http://www.shoaheducation.com/pNEW.html
http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html

Angie W said...

I am rolling....you actually cut and paste the wikipedia references to VALIDATE the wikipedia reference...that is greatness!

That's like going to all the catholic websites to cite facts on why birth control is murder...HILARIOUS!

Riley said...

Angie, I guess you, like 80% of other Americans, have heard the song then. And no, I don't think that was original content by a band that was 'off the street'.

I beg you to watch the videos where Obama talks about his plans for the military and Biden talks about the looming attack on america created to "test the meddle of this guy". Then go check out some of the youtube videos of Russian fighter planes and missiles versus american fighter planes and missiles.

I may be a one issue voter, but if 'That One' is elected president, I think America will be laughed at as a little girl with her skirt up in the playground crying over her skinned knees... right up to the moment when we get blown off the map!

And in case you're wondering, I know it's spelled mettle, too. I swear comedy is wasted on some people!

Riley said...

Justin,
From what I saw, the wikipedia site had only 2 references, and a lot of 'reference needed' statements in the US section. Those 2 references only said that 7 states still had blood test requirements and that is 4 year old info.

Also, while I have to agree with my wife and the bible that 'children are a blessing', I understand why some people with limited income would consider a state paid sterilization. I don't think that means that abortion equals eugenics.

Did I miss something? Are you speaking in theoretical circles or other countries? I see how nazi's may have used this, but maybe I missed your point.

BTW, I haven't had time to research the other references and probably won't, but I do want to understand your point.

Generally- to no-one in particular-
In any case, I have been known to argue both sides quite a bit on this topic, but in the end I can say with 100% certainty that:

If I point a gun at a cop...
If I punch you in the face...
If I shoot you in the bum...
I will be prosecuted because you have rights
EVEN THOUGH!
I have the right to bear arms and never pulled the trigger
I have the right to swing my fists
I have the right to protect my family and my castle.

Likewise,
You have the right to choose what you do with your body...
Except if you drink under 21
Except if drive without a license
Except if you damage my person or property.

Your rights end when they infringe on the rights of others. Its the american way, and always has been... until the Supreme Court decided to 're-write the law' in Roe v. Wade. This is the problem that our founding fathers did everything in their power to prevent. The president and Supreme Court have their own jobs to do, and legislation is NOT it!

I wish Obama would have had time to learn what his job was before he put himself up for promotion... he served a whole 5 months before he 'quit' the senate to run for president? And somehow in the midst of that was named 'most liberal senator" by the National Journal. And you think he's trustworthy and qualified and want to vote for him... shame on you!

Justin Ransom said...

Angie, none of the links I just posted are references on wikapedia. They are the references for my own research and if you would have actualy looked at it you would know that.

Anonymous said...

This is Hannah Briscoe. I am so happy Justin that you mentioned the link between abortion and eugenics. And to respond to Riley's question about if you were just talking about Nazi's or other countries, I had to join in the conversation. Few people realize that it was the American scientific community who actually influenced the Nazis in the 1930s toward forced sterilization and social planning. Another sad chapter of our history. I was shocked to find out in my research that America was one of the leading countries in performing forced sterilization on people whom were deemed to posses negative genetic traits. Even into the 1970s, forced sterilizations were still being performed on patients in mental hospitals in two states! Unbelievable! History only remembers the nazis as doing these terrible things because of the level they took it to. They wanted to build a perfect society and forced people they deemed "unfit for procreation" to be sterilized or to have an abortion. This included not only races they feemed genetically inferior, but also the mentally handicapped, alcoholics, and the list goes on. Then they compensated and awarded women the german cross of motherhood to the families that fit their mold of strong German blood. What people don't realize is that these ideas of social planning, or eugenics, were prevalent in America and in many cases were exported from America to Germany. I know it seems off topic, but my point is this: you cannot condemn on situation and excuse the other simply because of the extent to which it was carried. If the foundational ideas are wrong, they are both wrong. And once an idea is granted credibility or legitimacy, it is very difficult to keep it from growing and expanding in ways that were previously unthinkable. And I did not know that the founder of planned parenthood was a eugenics supporter, but that is scary. Life is beautiful and life is hard. We cannot say that abortion is ok for people who are not ready for a baby because we are afraid of the situation worsening for them if they do. Pro-choice Americans at least still largely agree that women are the ones to decide on those situations, but we have to wake up and realize that things are not going to always be the same. Who is to say that those in society who believe in eugenics, social planning, will not begin to make those decions for women. And I know that there are people who believe in this stuff who are working for that now. Germans in the 1920s did not have Nazi beliefs, but when in the 1930s a charismatic man came on the scene to a country ravaged by fear of their desparate financial situation created by World War I, and began to make speeches about the strength of their great race, people were vulnerable and began to listen. I AM NOT saying that Barak Obama is anything like Hitler in heart and ideas. But I AM saying that America must realize that we cannot sit here and think that our country is immune from dangerous trends based on our ideological history. Don't follow charisma, use your brain and your heart. If you are afraid because of our financial crisis, but you think that Obama's ideas are fundamentally wrong morally, then don't vote for Obama. And don't be naive. As was proved in our history through slavery and racism, and as was confirmed in the twentieth century through the eugenics movement and sterilization, we (our country) is capable of a lot more than we think if we do not make a stand. And the probability that the next president will appoint 3 new justices to the supreme court is a HUGE HUGE HUGE reason to take your vote very very seriously.

Anonymous said...

"you cannot condemn on situation and excuse the other simply because of the extent to which it was carried. If the foundational ideas are wrong, they are both wrong."

I agree with this...have you decided to ignore the environmental racism, educational inequities, benefit vs. burden, and other REALLY important issues that YOUR CANDIDATE will IGNORE??

I am so ASTONISHED that Christians are still under the impression that REPUBLICANS are somehow more MORAL...Don't you see they are BANKING ON YOU? Don't you see through it? I wish you could see McCain behind closed doors...I am sure he is NOT the PRO LIFE WARRIOR you think he is.

He has you all by the short and curlies and you are still buying into it. BARF!

Heather said...

Wow, lots of arguing. I don't think arguing is productive... sometimes it means people are just waiting for their turn to talk.... Everyone can be nice and listen/discuss, rather than react with anger... that's how you learn, ya know?

I just have a comment about your actual blog entry, Destiny. I do agree with you that voters can and should definitely have the option to vote their morals. As long as a voter is choosing their candidate for a reason, I can always respect that.

The only food for thought I would offer is that people's morals differ. For instance, I feel the denial of gay marriage rights is a modern manifestation of Jim Crow, and I feel very strongly about that. For that reason, I can never vote for a ticket that includes Sarah Palin because I'd feel like I was voting for a bigot. Those are my morals.

I also find it immoral that unwanted children grow up in foster homes or in their mother's houses where they are made to feel unwanted every day. Thousands of kids time out of foster care every year. To me, the onus of abortion is on US, not the government.... because reversing Roe v. Wade is A) never going to happen B)wouldn't stop abortions even if it was overturned. However, comprehensive sex education, a revival of fatherhood, and mentorship WILL reduce abortions and that's OUR job. The government can't solve everyone's problems. Abortion exists because of a lack of love, understanding, and support. That is OUR fault.

Just something to think about. -HM

Des said...

I so agree that the comments on this post have gotten mean spirited at times. It's no bueno to me.
And I also agree that outlawing abortion won't stop the attempts, and won't stop unwanted pregnancies... however, what it WILL do is reduce the amount, the grievous amount of abortions that have happened since Roe v. Wade became legal. What has in effect happened is abortion has become a form of birth control, which is abhorrent. Although the foster system is awful... at least they are given a chance to make it. The other solution is to what? Abort them so they don't get into the system? That doesn't seem like a good trade off to me.
I am a HUGE believer that the government can't solve all of our problems and nor should they. I don't think over turning abortion is the solution to never having unwanted pregnancies, that would be naive at best. But there is NO doubt that the amount of abortions will drop if it is overturned and millions upon millions of children will have a chance. Women who thought they would be an awful mother or think their lives are over will find out how awesome it is and how the sacrifice is worth it in the end, no matter what the cost.
As far as the issue of gay marriage goes, you're right, my opinions differ. Although I don't think they should have adverse legislation against them in any way, I will never agree with changing the definition of marriage, which is between a man and a woman. And funny enough Obama and Biden both agree with me on that.
So anyways, all that to say everyone is going to pick their candidates based on different reasons. Some moral, some economic, some based on their views about the war and international relations... everyone has their reasons. The whole point of my blog was just to remind people that we as Christians have a duty to vote based on moral affinity, not just party platform.

Heather said...

Correct, but Obama and Biden DO support adoption by gay couples and expansion of hate crime laws to include gays. They also support ratification of state laws to legalize gay marriage. It's a start. I don't vote third party, because it makes me feel like I am wasting my vote. There are different views on voting third party, but I'm just not comfortable with it.

And actually, yes. I do believe that women should be able to abort within the first trimester. The slim chance that one kid will make over all the other kids that will grow up abused and unloved.... those aren't good odds. The whole "trying to overturn Roe v. Wade" will never succeed, so I think a change in strategy is called for. While reversing Roe v. Wade is nowhere near happening... supporting and educating at-risk mothers can happen TOMORROW! That's something anyone can do.

Abortion hurts everyone, including the would-be mother, which is something many people don't understand. I know more about adoption and the foster care system than most anyone, and yes, foster care is HELL for many children. Many are never adopted and many live through years and years of multiple foster homes, or no home at all. Because of the combination of where I live, my job, my upbringing, and my community involvement, I also know that mothers who get talked out of abortion can be the worst mothers you have ever met - horrifying. I already have one young girl close to me up here in Chicago that I am just waiting for the day that we need to move her into my home because her mother will one day cross the line. Legally we can't take her yet.

That's a long-winded way to say just NOT having the abortion doesn't necessarily fix anything and may actually create hell for a child who might not have had to deal with it. To me, eighteen years of hell is not worth it.

I actually think we agree, we just have different ideas for how unwanted pregnancies should be prevented. To me, it's through education and support and fatherhood. That will prevent way more unwanted pregnancies than Roe v. Wade (whether it's in place or reversed) ever could.

Des said...

SO true you are basically an expert on the whole foster care/adoption scene. Something I don't have a lot of experience in so you trump me there. However, fundamentally I can never agree that aborting a baby is a better option than putting them in the system.
And I so agree with you that we need to focus on other areas in order to help decrease the NEED for abortion, because there will always be unwanted pregnancies. Yet again, I disagree with the fact that we should just sit by apathetically while millions of children are aborted... I will always support legislation to abolish it, whether it be on the federal or state level.
Like I said, it would take an extreme miracle to ever see Roe v. Wade overturned, but one can always be hopeful! :)
I also think you bring up another point, the fact that we basically can only pick from column A or column B because any other independent candidate vote is basically a throw away vote. Now I don't want to get out of control and have a bazillion parties like the English for example, HOWEVER, it would be nice to have more than 2 columns to choose from...

Anonymous said...

Heather...whoever you are...I LOVE YOU!! You are SO RIGHT! Thank you, THANK YOU!!

I hope someday, we will have the comprehensive education we need to help young girls (and guys) make the right decisions...based on SCIENTIFIC INFO! (supplemented by Abstinence only until marriage if you like) =) KUDOS!!

Anonymous said...

ABORTION: If you dont believe in it dont do it. Personally I could never do it. But we as a people are not God, so let him pass the judgement on them and leave it alone. People kill people all day long, innocents die everywhere, we cant save everyone, and when they die they are in a better place RIGHT??? I dont understand why this is a HUGE issue. It doesnt make since to me, I feel it is and should be noones business but the person doing it. Jenny Herrington

Anonymous said...

ABORTION: If you dont believe in it dont do it. Personally I could never do it. But we as a people are not God, so let him pass the judgement on them and leave it alone. People kill people all day long, innocents die everywhere, we cant save everyone, and when they die they are in a better place RIGHT??? I dont understand why this is a HUGE issue. It doesnt make since to me, I feel it is and should be noones business but the person doing it. Jenny Herrington

Des said...

The reason I can't just let it alone is because I view it as murder. So I can't be okay with it and won't vote for a president who doesn't view it the same way.

Zanna said...

Great Blog destiny! You are such a good writer and truly find the right way of saying anything. Especially on the issue of aboration. I totally agree with you. I enjoying reading your blogs. Love YA!

becki said...

I definitely agree that human life is greater in importance than animal life hands down.

Riley, I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment, but I don't remember saying anything about abortion being "ok" or that the church was doing a tragic job on the issue. I didn't say that at all! I think that the church and people like Lou Engle and the call have made great strides in this effort. And I certainly in no way think that abortion is "ok." It's abhorrent.

I also did recently hear about the FOCA and I've been reading about it the past few days. I'm absolutely open to new information and am willing to be teachable.

Pipers Mom said...

First I just want to say that Destiny this blog is really well stated. I 100% agree with you. The whole time I was reading this and the comments that followed one scripture kept coming to mind:

Matthew 25:31-46
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=31

I think it applies to who we vote for. It may seem a very "simple" way of lookimg at it, but I believe that the unborn are the least of these. God doesn't make mistakes, EVERY child has a purpose. Who are we to say they do not?

Katie Leckie said...

Well put Sarah!

Daniel Owens said...

Posted by Daniel Owens (who also didn't have a father)

It is very disturbing to read some of the comments by people who claim God is on the Republican side.

Granted abortion is horrible and homosexuality is invalidated in the New Testament.

But, So IS DIVORCE AND VENGEANCE.
McCain is divorced but the so-called Christian community insists that we be merciful.
This seems very pragmatically driven instead of consistent. Why is it that the majority of Republican Christians are so forceful about gay marriage? Did Jesus or Paul or James or Peter ever speak about Gay Rights? No, even though homosexuality was prevalent in that day. What Paul did say is, "What do I have to do with judging those outside of the church?" GOD FORBID HOMOSEXUALS HAVE CIVIL RIGHTS! (That is sarcasm)

Next, is it true that the Republican party is the pro-life party?
5 steps to devaluing life:
1. Go to war with a poor country who is harboring terrorists but leave with only half of the job done so that the nation is twice as poor as before.
2. Swear that a nation (this is a different nation) that has done nothing to harm you has weapons of mass destruction.
3. Ignore the other nations of the world and invade that nation.
4.Find out you were dead wrong.
5.When someone confronts you with this insist that the Surge is working!

To be anti-abortion does not mean that you are pro-life or Christian. Tell the poor Iraqi mother who has lost all of her sons in a war that her country did not start that we are PRO-LIFE! If you can do that then something is wrong.

Question:
What type of Christian (Republican or Democrat) could really be elected?

Answer:
Neither because a Christian swear allegiance to Christ and Christ alone. Mc Cain, Obama, Reagan, Bush would never say that but we act like that doesn't matter. We should remember our citizenship is from heaven not America (that is if you are a Christian). God is not voting for either candidate because he has already cast his vote -- his only vote (on the Elect One). The Bible claims that the nations are raging against this king (and yes that's the USA too). His name is Jesus and when he comes back to reclaim the world for God he will defeat the USA too, don't forget that.

It is wrong to claim that their is a 'Christian Vote' because the right way to think of it is that their are Christians who vote! We should be very cautious to claim we are on God's side because most of the time we are really assuming God is on our side and that is idolatry.

Instead focus on revealing God in your body not through some form of government that at war with him. Paul did not attempt to fight abortion in his day (even though it existed) nor did he attack homosexuality (even though it was more common then than it is now). Some (most) of the comments that have been made out of the wrong Spirit-- the Spirit of God is one of mercy and not of destruction.

Vote for whoever you want just don't claim that your vote is the VOTE OF GOD that's just arrogant.

Faith, Hope, Joy

Des said...

It's a giant leap to say that just because people (including myself) say we won't vote for Obama and that McCain stems CLOSER (not exactly) to my moral compass that all of a sudden I am pulling the God card saying voting for McCain is the "Vote of God". That's quite a stretch there as that is about the farthest thing from what at least I am saying. I've said over and over again that I am not saying McCain is the answer. I just think in comparison of the 2, my choice is clear.
That's based on my personal convictions and decisions. Yours may be different and more power to you.

Daniel Owens said...

I understand that my comments may have sounded like you were missingerstood. If it is a a giant leap to hear you say that your vote is who God wants you to votE then I am sorry. When statements are made that claim issues 'grieve the heart of God' or it's all about 'morality' it does indeed sound like you are saying you are voting for who God wants his children to. War is a moral issue equal to abortion and the budget is a moral issue. That's all I'm saying I respect your right to have an opinion but it is hard for everyone to talk about sensitive issues when each side claims they are voting foe the one who is closer to the heart of God.

Have a good day.

Mabrie said...

To lighten up the mood....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKQE4vtVrJI

Brad Shull said...

Whoever Daniel Owens is.... YOU ROCK!

RILEY,

Since you are such a plethora of information, why don't you list some laws the Congress has passed that have caused all the crap over the past 2 years.

Copy and Pasting does not equal intelligence.

Anonymous said...

Yes Brad, and all of your comments have spewed great knowledge and been so thought provoking. I've always found berating people, with an occasional "ya what you said", is a great debate approach.

Brad Shull said...

Thank you!

Des said...

Daniel- I stand firmly by my statement saying that abortion grieves the heart of God, as well as all innocent shedding of blood. So I guess we can say we agree to an extent. However war is war and it's not pleasant and innocent lives are lost as unnecessary casualties. It's hard for me to equate the two though and so I won't even go there as it's just my personal opinion and it's too easy to argue both sides, and it would go no where.

Daniel Owens said...

This blog could actually be helpful (in my opinion) if we all realized that no matter who we vote for we could all realize ten years from now we voted for the wrong guy. It is okay to have opinions on politics but it is much more helpful (I think) to have people to talk to that hold different opinions. Life sure feels much more real when you allow love to better differences between you and a friend.

On that note I was wondering if anyone (maybe Riley) would be willing to answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Why is abortion (which also anger me) a more important moral issue than war and oppressing the poor? Because our unjust war has killed many innocent and helpless people too and if we weren't so busy fighting two wars we could help the issues in Darfur.

I think the nation may buy our passion if it were consistent.

2. Why is communism the word we all don't want to be labeled with?

I mean pure communism won't work any more then pure democracy or capitalism will. So does anyone know what form of government killed the (arguably) most brilliant thinker to ever live (of course out side of Jesus)..…

Yep, it was the first ever recorded democracy and his name was Socrates. No wonder Plato hated democracy and wrote a book called the Republic which claimed the perfect world would be run by Kings. By the way do we pledge allegiance (which I don't) to a democracy or a Republic. Yeah that's right we are a Republic. A government for the people and by the people.

Not just 'for' (which gives the purpose) and not just 'by'(which gives us the method). It is both and it should stay that way (in my opinion).

It seems to me that the reason the USA's government has worked is because it mixes communism with capitalism. I mean you know why communism doesn't work? Because it assumes all men are good (what a blunder). You know why capitalism is successful? Because the greedier its members are the stronger the unit becomes (that is if you don't consider the losers important). Good ol’ conservative America wants to revisit the ‘red’ scare every time someone wants to make the government larger. I mean I’d rather bail out the broke then the banks.

Maybe we should consider the idea that spreading the wealth around is not a horrible idea. I mean it could be a disastrous idea if the Republicans don't hold Obama in check a little. Would it such a bad thing to help the poor? I grew up in Prince George's County which was, while I was there, the murder capitol of the world. The people I grew up with by and large had no hope. Their parents were irresponsible and their kids were twenty times worse. Is it really such a bad thing to give them some bread from our table. It is not 'repulsive' it is merciful. I have received more mercy then I will ever be able to repay -- but should that stop me from trying?

By the way the aphorism 'give a man a fish and he eats for a day but teach a man to fish and he eats the rest of his life' is noticeably absent from the New Testament. It is in Confusion though. Jesus took men who knew how to provide for themselves and taught them to give no care for their own needs but to trust God to help them. BLESSED ARE THE POOR! We are supposed to think of ourselves as being designated to help those who will hurt us.

If you want to be a one issue voter I respect that. In the past I have been too. But why do some people think they have the right to say which issue it has to be?

Finally, this is for Des. I am not asking you to take back your claim. I agree 100 percent with you that abortion grieves the heart of God. It is horrible and maybe the biggest injustice being done in the world today. Maybe. Many wars have masqueraded injustice around in the robe of Justice. How would any of us feel if Russia attacked us and killed many of us (both civilian and military) because they (wrongly) thought we were going to attack them? War is the reason Europe wants nothing to do with Religion. You know why their is a separation of Church and State? Because Christians have proven they can’t be trusted to run the State without killing everyone who disagrees with them. Anyone remember Galileo, Martin Luther?

If you don’t want to discuss it then fine it is your blog but I was so looking forward to a great discussion.

Brad Shull said...

Wow. That is it! That is exactly how I feel. Daniel, I really would like to sit and talk with you man.

I have learned a lesson with this blog and its that saying things with Grace and knowledge goes so much farther than anger. I apologize for being such an ass in my comments to certain people.

joanna moore said...

Pipers mom- thanks for the scripture reference, I definitely agree that the unborn could be included among “the least of these”—even ghandi knew that (he said “a nation’s greatness is directly related to how it treats its weakest members” or something like that).

Daniel- maybe there’s no such thing as the “vote of God” but I definitely think there is a possibility that one of the candidates’ positions on issues could be more in line morally with God’s word. That doesn’t mean he’s never made mistakes (we’ve ALL sinned), or that he’s perfect for the job, just that he would be more likely than the other to stand for what Christians believe to be the truth. And that’s why we are voting for him.

Oh and (change of subject) speaking of communism, did you know that in 2004 Obama went to Kenya with our tax dollars to support his Marxist (communist) cousin who was running for president? And then when he didn’t get elected, Odinga’s (the cousin) supporters went out and burned a bunch of churches, killing 150,000 people (Christians)? And then became prime minister? Just FYI.

“Spreading the wealth around is not a horrible idea”. You’re right, but it shouldn’t be forced. The church should be taking care of the truly needy, instead of the government taking everybody’s money, spending a lot of it on themselves and a lot of it on people that don’t really NEED it.

“If you want to be a one issue voter I respect that. In the past I have been too. But why do some people think they have the right to say which issue it has to be?” –Well, everybody that has the right to vote has the right to vote based on what they think the most important issue(s) is (are).

Brad- I don’t think it’s fair for you to criticize the time Riley has spent researching the “plethora of information” that he has. He’s not a congressman, so if you want him to post laws passed by congress, it just might be more intelligent to spend the time finding them for you, copying and pasting them rather than retyping everything. That function is a real time-saver!

Side note...I just gotta say, if Obama gets elected, I think real soon everybody that made it happen is going to realize what a terrible mistake they have made. I'm not saying that McCain would be a perfect president, but I think the regret would be much greater with Obama in office.

joanna moore said...

Correction: After more careful research, I admit that some of my facts on the Odinga story were inaccurate, so before somebody slams me here's the truth:

Odinga and Obama are not first cousins, but are from the same Luo tribe. Not 150,000 but 1,000 were killed and 500,000 displaced from their homes. It was 2006-2007, not 2004.

Still alarming that he supported this guy.

joanna moore said...

Correction: After more careful research, I admit that some of my facts on the Odinga story were inaccurate, so before somebody slams me here's the truth:

Odinga and Obama are not first cousins, but are from the same Luo tribe. Not 150,000 but 1,000 were killed and 500,000 displaced from their homes. It was 2006-2007, not 2004.

Still alarming that he supported this guy.

Brad Shull said...

I have never heard anything about the Obama/Odinga thing. Thanks for letting me know about it. I will have to look into and see what all happened with that.

I think Riley does need to state some laws passed if he is going to claim the Congress is responsible for the state the country is in today. I believe his statement to be FALSE due to my personal research and I am just asking him to show me. Its not rude to ask people to back up what they say.

I just Pray whoever gets elected is truly the will of God and that they actually do some of the stuff they are promising. We will see tomorrow.

bullets said...

YEEEAAHHHH POLITICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell me more politicians. Please can we get everyone in a round table forum and talk these issues with each other, then maybe we would be able to prove to each other our point of views. That would obviously change everyone's ideals, right??

Anonymous said...

I love how all you "FOLLOWERS OF GOD" are rude and mean!!! Its exactly why I do not go to church. What the world needs is love and patience. If im going to hell for that than so be it.

Riley said...

Brad, I'm not on the same computer, but I did post late last night, for some reason it's not showing up. Des, maybe you know why?

Anyways, I'll see if I can recover the info from my Mac at home!

Des said...

Well, you know what they always say, it's never polite to talk about Politics or Religion... I think for the most part it's not a bad thing to be able to have a platform for people to give their opinions on everything. This is an open platform. I haven't deleted anyone's comments or regulated anything. I for one think discussions, even when they get a little mean spirited, still serve a purpose. So sarcasm and diatribes against Christianity as well as bashing and belittling liberal or conservative beliefs... at least it's all getting you guys thinking enough to write out your beliefs... so if this blog wasn't polite or politically correct and it offended you, then I apologize as it really wasn't the point, but I don't regret all the comments that have come out of it.

Brad Shull said...

Anonymous kinda has a point.

Sorry this has turned you off to God. That should be a lesson to all of us.

Anonymous said...

Hey Destiny,
This is Brandie...

Maybe I'm extremely uneducated about what the Bible says...but this is what I beleive to be true.

There was a recent post about how abortion is no different from war...and how God wouldn't support McCain as President because he's divorced...and that Homosexuality is not addressed in a negative way in the new testament... here is my response...again I may be completely uneducated but this is my opinion...

Abortion is completely different than a JUST war. There were times in the Old Testament in times of War that God told the people to go and to kill everyone in that tribe down to the cattle. That meant even the innocent. I'm not saying that that is what we need to do in this case becuase I think the situation is different. But if God viewed war and abortion the same I think this wouldn't have been the case in the Old Testament. I think war for a just reason and abortion for no reason are two completely different things.

As far as McCain and divorce goes... While I do think God detests divorce he did "divorce" Isreal in the Old Testament when thier hearts were turned from Him. I can find this if I need to.... Also in the new Testament he lists two situations in which divorce are okay... Adultry and if the other person leaves....So I don't know why McCain and his wife got divorced but I would venture to say there are probably few that really do. Also (although many would disagree with me) I don't think being a divorced person quenches any hope of becoming the Person God wants you to be i.e: a preacher, or minister, or whatever. So while God doesn't like divorce it's not all together forbidded.

And as far as Homosexuality being addressed by Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. It is addressed SEVERAL times in the new and old testaments. There are numerous occasions where it tells us to flee from Sexual immorality which Homosexuality is defined as in the Old Testament. Becuase of this I think that as His people we can't even be associated with supporting it. I'm not saying don't love the person. I have gay friends, but they don't discuss thier lifestyle with me becuase I'm very open about my opinions when asked. Which leads me to my last point about anonymous' comment

I don't have any obligation to appease anyone except the Lord and I think that if this Blog makes someone not want to follow God than it's thier issue and not mine, becasue as a follower in Him and someone that is pursuing Him with passion, discussions like this make me want to pursue him more. I think that is becuase I feel like it's my job as a Christian to do my part to try and further the Kingdom and in this type of setting I'm not beating anyone over the head with a Bible. (Nor in any setting I hope) So when someone blames this type of blog on not following God in my opinion it's just an excuse that they are looking for and I pray eventually they run out of them and turn thier life and heart to Him and see that without Him you can't do anything!!

Daniel & Brittny Owens said...

Ok, this is frustrating.

Brandie you completely misrepresented EVERY SINGLE THING I SAID.

I must assume you did not read carefully what I said but responded to a 'straw man'. A 'straw man' is a logical fallacy that consists of someone constructing an argument that does not actually exist so that it sounds cool when you defeat it.

You claim that a JUST WAR is okay in God’s sight. Fine no argument there. The problem is this is not a just war ( We have nuclear weapons too don’t we?). Unless you consider attacking a nation that never attacked us on some figment of our imagination that we used as evidence. Just image one of us were to kick some one’s door in and shoot the residents because we thought they were planning to rob our house. Then when we invade their house we find that that we were wrong. We would go to jail. Why is it that the same party that wants Bill Clinton to be impeached for having an affair does not want to hold the President accountable? Is integrity not a moral issue? This is not a just war!

Also I did not say that McCain should not be President because he is divorced! That is an unfair representation of what I said was that the Christian community insists that we be merciful. That is not even close to your charge! My point is that it shouldn’t matter not that it should!

Next, I did not say the New Testament doesn’t speak about homosexuality but instead about Gay Rights! Once again, big difference. Please find the place for me where the New Testament calls for civil legislation. (insert chirping sound!) That’s right it doesn’t! (Matter of fact the New Testament never even tells us to be good citizens of anything other then heaven) Paul, Jesus and Peter also talk about other forms of sexual immorality (like promiscuity) but I don’t see such an outrage against this. Why are their no laws banning sleeping around? Some will say its different, ok maybe. But while God’s order calls for one man and one woman the sanctity of marriage calls for one partner. (Anyone remember a little Christian disaster called prohibition?) All I am saying is that when it comes to church matters we should instill God’s order but when it comes to the United States we should allow the government to be run by the people and for the people because Christians aren’t the only ones who live here. The USA is not and never has been a Christian nation (ever wondered why our money doesn’t say in Jesus we trust (think about that for a minute). Also, if you want to bring up God divorcing Israel (Jer 3) just remember that when God remarried Israel through Jesus IT WAS A NEW DEAL! (Sorry for the liberal language!) Yep that’s right no Temple in Jerusalem, Ten Commandments, circumcision, Sabbath, God commanded war (since God will defeat his enemies himself now) oh and we can eat shrimp and bacon or better yet shrimp rapped in bacon. So please a little consistency.



P.S.
To J. Moore

I actually agree with you. We should all do our best to vote in a way that we think best represents who we are as Christians. You have your opinion and I have mine. That’s ok. What is not okay (in my opinion) is for us to tell everyone else which moral issues take precedence over other issues! The unborn could be the least of these I absolutely agree! But what about those who are born! Won’t wealth redistribution help? Maybe or Maybe not! Did you know under the current tax code a millionaire is able to get a childcare credit but someone who doesn’t make over 20, 000 cannot get the credit because he doesn’t earn enough. I am not asking you or anyone else to vote for Obama what I am asking is that we understand the ‘other side’ may not be inherently evil. There is a reason why James is so hard on the Rich in his epistle. The reason is because historically the wealthy make sure the wealth is originally distributed to themselves.

Anonymous said...

Daniel. I understand what you are saying and thank your for clarifying. And I'm sorry but I did complelety misunderstand what you were saying about the way but I also agree that the war we are fighting is not just I just thought you were comparing "war" to "abortion" and I don't feel like they are always the same. I also agree that we need to uphold God's order. Sorry that I misunderstood what you we're saying.

Anonymous said...

I did not mean I do not go to church because of this blog, I do not go to church because of the hypocratic way that 75% people that go to church act. If someone that doesnt beileve or follow your interpretation of the bible, the are wrong, but how do you know you are sooo right? Are you God? No your nothing. Just like me. Not better, not worse. Just like me!

Daniel Owens said...

Brandie,

The integrity you displayed in your last response was awesome. That is the type of attitude we could all learn from.

Anonymous,

If we as Christians have come off as hypocritical then I am sorry. But disagreeing with each other (even forcefully) should not make us hypocrites. Opinions about injustice run deep for all of us. Our major disagreements are about what is the best way to fix injustice and the disagreements should not be based on the idea that our way is the only way. The Christian message is one that declares that one day God will make the world right but until then it is our job to show the world who God is by our actions. We all miss it sometimes. One question though, is that statistic you quoted (75%) an opinion or have you actually taken a poll? Also, how do you define hypocrisy? Because aren't we all hypocrites on some level? I am! That is why discussion with those who disagree with our own views is so important. This is because even when we want to be honest it is not possible alone. Is the group you associate with (even if it just yourself) any different?

This question is important because it seems that no group (even Christians) are free from hypocrisy. Therefore the fair way to treat others is with the same tolerance that our own condition requires others to treat us with.

Thanks,

Daniel

Anonymous said...

alot of people need something to believe in, i just dont like judgement placed on people,(gays, someone who choose abortion,ect. you dont know a person unless you have walked in their shoes) and your right everyone is a hypocrite(including me) because I judge you(i say You meaning those who have judged) for judging others, I dont care what you beileve, as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else, but I do think that for you to truely understand someone elses lifestyle, you should walk in there shoes.

Anonymous said...

and yes I know that my spelling is terrible:>

Brandie said...

anonymous- this is Brandie again.

And I have to say that I feel the ability to judge some people's decisions because I have walked in thier shoes...

And I don't think the point is making people feel and view things the way I do,but the way God does. And if we are Christians actively pursuing Christ than our views should line up with those of God. And we know what God wants not becuase we are God but becuase we have His infallible word to guide us.

Anonymous said...

"I love how all you "FOLLOWERS OF GOD" are rude and mean!!! Its exactly why I do not go to church."

-- Get a new excuse... that one is played out.

Riley said...

Brad,

I was finally able to restore my message from a few moons ago. My original transcript follows:


You can see all the same information on Congressional laws I can. Most of my research regarding specific laws has been done on www.senate.gov. I'd rather read it for myself than listen to a newscaster. But the other side of this is just pure and simple timing. Bush took office and since this downturn was on 'his watch' as president, everyone is jumping on the 'Change' bandwagon. My point is actually that this idea is ridiculous, and I wouldn't have the opportunity to make it without you, so thank you!

The reality is that we have neither the congress from 2006-2008 nor Bush to thank for this even though it happened on the watch of each. The real culprit is a conglomeration of Fannie May, Freddie Mac, the congressional bailouts, the Fed, and the rating companies. Even more of the problem sits with Bill Clinton, who even claims (at least partial) responsibility. The cause of this was the very idea that everyone deserves to own his/her own home, regardless of income or commitment.

Before these companies came on the scene in major ways, and before we started PUSHing 0% down home loans and before Clinton and Congress started pushing HARD for everyone to get approved, you had to have 20% down, dependent upon income, cash on hand, and credit rating. Even people with low income could get help with the whole process, but they still had to be dedicated enough to the idea of owning a home to save and have something to put down. That is far more important in credit-worthiness than total income in my humble opinion! With very few exception, the only people who could get a home loan were the people who exercised a long term commitment to saving the money to get there.

Enter Clinton's new plan! Fannie and Freddie are not lenders. They are guarantors. that means that while Countrywide may have been the name on the mortgage, it was Fannie and Freddie who had to pay if the individual did not. Rating companies began rating home mortgages as AAA. Most all commodity traders require a AAA rating to incorporate an investment into their portfolio, so this allowed them to get into people's private IRAs, etc. If the rating companies had been honest, they would have thrown up their hands and said 'we DON'T KNOW! how to rate these' and not given them the best rating available.

Instead, what happened was they said 'hey, mortgages are pretty safe, what the heck!' and they were right, but they failed to consider that they were basing that on a group of people who had struggled to put together that 20% down, not a bunch of people who never could really afford a house using deferred interest on an ARM. It was because people's investment accounts were including these types of AAA rated investments (commodities) and they started to fail that people lost so much in their retirement accounts, et al.

So, if you just lost 35% of your retirement because of a bunch of poor people who never should have been in a house, what would you do? PULL YOUR MONEY OUT!!!!! PULL OUT OF EVERYTHING!!!!! TRUST NOBODY!!!!

Warren Buffet would disagree with you perhaps, but that's what happened. People who had their life savings in the stock market saw what happened in the 90s about to happen again, and pulled out. This caused the stock market crash. BUT a smart investor still wants to make money and understands that when the market is low, you BUY, and when it is high , you SELL! That is why we have seen the largest one day gain in the DOW EVER this past week.

But, Brad, in response to your question, it can all be traced back to Fannie and Freddie and the fact that the government is now part owners in each, is all the more scary.

So many more things I want to say, but I have an early morning friends.

One other quick note to Daniel...
I never once said that Darfur didn't matter. HOWEVER, the estimations are at least 35 MILLION abortions since Roe V. Wade, and most estimate 45-50 MILLION! I encourage you to look at the losses in every war America has been involved in, and compare the deaths. IF war is cruel, then war on the unborn is INTOLERABLE! 100% of the the unborn in this war will die. And they will do so without even a rock to throw at their killers. At least the people in Darfur have the ability to lift their hands against their oppressors. I'm not being heartless, but if I can only fight for one or the other at a time, it will be the 'least of these', the 'defenseless'.

May I leave you with Robert E Lee's definition of a gentleman:

The forbearing use of power does not only form a touchstone, but the manner in which an individual enjoys certain advantages over others is a test of a true gentleman.

The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly--the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light

The gentleman does not needlessly and unnecessarily remind an offender of a wrong he may have committed against him. He cannot only forgive, he can forget; and he strives for that nobleness of self and mildness of character which impart sufficient strength to let the past be but the past. A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others.

Ask yourself, who amongst the nominees fits this better, and you can't help but include Michelle Obama's letter when Barack was running for senate. Please view a copy of it at:
www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/05/michelle_obamas.html

Riley said...

Becki, sorry for the late reply.

I did not intend to suggest that you said that the church is doing a horrible job. That was my own commentary. The fact that there is not a statistical difference between those who claim a religion or even any specific religion and those who do not is alarming. If we are supposed to be different, we're failing. If we're not, what's the point?

That's what I meant to say in my broken english! sorry for failing to make it clear that this was my personal addition.

~Riley

Daniel and Brittny Owens said...

Riley,

Sorry to have to point this out to you but your logic leaves a little something to be desired. You have committed the fallacy of the false dilemma. To say waging war with a nation that never attacked you is cruel and abortion is intolerable is offensive and illogical is a strange statement. THEY ARE BOTH INTOLERABLE! It is not either or. If they are not then I'm not really sure what your basis is for abortion being intolerable. Please remember that abortion was around when the gospels and the Epistles were written but it was never discussed. But vengeance and abuse of the poor was. By the way did the Iraqi's have rocks to throw at the missiles during shock and awe (that comment of yours should cause you shame).

I just want you to at least acknowledge the fact that my position is not willing to approve of any form of killing. Abortion is an abomination but who is to say that the one HAS TO BE dealt with first? You can have your opinion but don't misrepresent mine so yours will look noble. I pray that Obama will realize he is dead wrong when he calls children a mistake. That saddens me in a part of my heart that I seldom feel. But can I vote for someone I disagree with? I hope so...

Also, I'll let Brad respond to the comments you made to him. But please notice how derogatorily you use the term 'poor'. BLESSED are the poor is a major announcement of the 'good news' not BLESSED are those who have barns to store their wealth (just read any part of the Gospel of Luke).

If everyone owning a home is such a bad idea then why didn't Bush change it? Was he to busy waging war on innocent countries or did he not posses the knowledge that everyone claims to have now or were his Republican big businessman making money so everything is all good? Maybe you have another possibility (please don't blame it on the Democratic Congress)? I'll sure be happy when we will hold the Presidents we voted for accountable and not just the ones we dislike. Talk about a moral issue!

Consistency would sure cause people to take us seriously.


Daniel